Make your campaign page pop w/ videographer Tim Chuon

George: 0:00
My name is George and I help creators launch their products and games. Today’s guest is not a traditional founder or creator. Tim Chuon is a board game photographer and videographer who has created the visuals for some of your favorite games and some friends of the pods like Scythe by Jamie Stegmaier, Mythwind by Openhouse Studios, and many others. Frosthaven and Call of Duty. He also has a great YouTube channel filled with board game content and practical tips. Today, he’s going to share what it takes to create stunning visuals for your project so you can do the same. Welcome, Tim.

Tim: 0:33
Hi, George. Thank you so much for having me on. I’m so excited to talk about everything today.

George: 0:37
Yeah, me too. It’s not every day that you meet someone who is doing something that is a niche within a niche, which is exactly what you’re doing. You are a videographer and photographer for board games and you do a lot of board games specifically that do crowdfunding, right?

Tim: 0:53
Yes I actually didn’t realize how much of a niche it was until you mentioned it. I’m like, oh shoot, I really am very specialized in that particular niche. It’s awesome.

George: 1:01
Describe to folks sort of the work that you’re doing And what sort of your daily work life looks like.

Tim: 1:08
Absolutely. I am I always identify as a photographer, but I ended up doing more videos and said, so videographer, photographer and I focus a lot on crowdfunding trailers. That’s usually my specialty, but between crowdfunding trailers and like lifestyle videos, For board games. Sometimes publishers will have games that they’re pitching to different retailers. So they’ll use these kinds of marketing assets in order to pitch different retailers to pitch a different distributors after a crowdfunding campaign. And then before that, of course, to build up the excitement and anticipation for the launch of a brand new game.

George: 1:43
Interesting. So that’s not the same as the. As the crowdfunding video.

Tim: 1:48
Yeah, they’re different. I think the reason why is because usually the crowdfunding trailers, unless it was like a specific project in mind, usually for the crowdfunding trailers, it would be just the board game. So it would be a lot of very excited, upbeat music and just very heavy hitters. I guess what you would see in like a movie trailer is what I usually make for Kickstarter trailers for board games. And then after that, if publishers are looking for something for distribution, and those would be more involved with like models and you’ll see more like human faces on screen, since these are the people that are playing games at home and everything. So it’s more relatable when it comes to like retail.

George: 2:23
Interesting. That’s so it’s yeah, it’s like a movie trailer. So people are shopping that around, they want to get publishers and retailers to come on board. So they ask you to make a trailer. That is basically the pitch for their game.

Tim: 2:36
Yes, exactly. And it’s interesting because when I started making this, I like, I didn’t make it with intention, of course, for as a Kickstarter, I made it just specifically for my YouTube channel. And it just took off because it was, I guess it was different in the fact that it was something that you can like, See and touch and like people can see scale to actual hands because I would just use my hands I would use like different parts of me just showing it. I wouldn’t show my face It would just focus solely on the game but still have that Kind of that physicality to it. So it’s different from animated trailers And I think that’s what publishers seem to enjoy more for launching these trailers

George: 3:14
So you making these trailers for your own YouTube channel just for fun for yourself or to grow your channel and then, game creators picked it up and thought, Hey, that’s actually really great. Can you do that? Paid for me. Is that how this came about?

Tim: 3:29
Yes, exactly. Because I started photography and videography a couple of years ago and I was like, I wish, We can bring the quality that I see in the photography world, in the videography world. I want to bring that quality to board games. Like, how come we don’t see that yet? So that’s what interested me and why I started. And I wanted to bring that perspective onto a board game format. And so I typically did it to pair with reviews. And then now they’re specifically for crowdfunding trailers because people can use that. As a marketing tool, as a marketing asset. So

George: 4:01
it worked out. I feel in a way that it’s because of people like you, Tim, that everyone has to get more and more professional these days when it comes to crowdfunding for board games, because it used to just be, you’ve got a cool idea. You draw something out on paper, you have a few prototypes made, you shoot it with your iPhone and you can get it funded. But these days crowdfunding campaigns are so professional and the assets and the videos that people like you make are like. Just, IMAX level productions. But that’s, so you started the trend,

Tim: 4:31
oh, yeah. Thank you. I feel like we were leaning that way anyway, and it’s just nice that I was able to bring my skill set because I, I think one big part about me is that I always like to improve. So if we compare like my first crowdfunding trailer to what’s now, it’s like night and day. I can’t even look back at those old trailers. It makes me want to throw up. But, I’m glad that we can keep upping the quality of it because I just feel like from a creative perspective I get to see a lot of the behind the scenes of what it takes to just make one board game on crowdfunding. There’s so much that goes into it. So I’m like, if there’s that much work that goes into it from their side, then I want to do, I want to reach that point from my side to really put my all into these trailers. So I can really represent the game for the fun that is.

George: 5:15
So that’s a really good point. A lot goes into a crowdfunding campaign. Obviously when it’s a game it’s prototyping the gameplay, testing the game, figuring out manufacturing, prototyping, there’s like that whole aspect, and then there’s the marketing side. In terms of assets, what does a good game need to have to be ready for a crowdfunding launch?

Tim: 5:36
Yeah, I think the trailer is definitely a big one because this is something that People are going to see on Facebook ads or any kind of streaming platform. This is what people are going to see leading up to 28 days before the campaign launch. So the commercial for me, I think it’s like the biggest thing followed by photos, because sometimes, people will see the video at first and then they want to know more. And then when we’re looking down the campaign page, even as a consumer perspective, I want to see, okay, what exactly am I going to be backing this project for? I want to see like real pictures. It really helps you to see models because then people get to see themselves. Playing the game. I get that comment a lot on my channel. It’s I love these photos because I can see myself playing the game and I can relate to these photos. Like this is something that I would do at home. Being

George: 6:18
actors or like people in the shots.

Tim: 6:20
Yeah, exactly. Like a cast, like a diverse cast and just having people playing the game. Cause in my photos, people are really playing the game. Like none of it is staged. Like they’re actually playing through one by one. So yeah we’re focusing on people

George: 6:33
scanning. So they are gamers, like the people that you hired to be in the photoshoot are actual gamers. that like to play a board game?

Tim: 6:41
I have a really big cast. Most of them weren’t at first. They are now because they get a model for these games now. So it’s funny because they’ll like text me now and say, Hey, I just got this brand new game from Target. They would have never done that like a year or two ago. It’s really funny. So we get to convert more to board gamers and that’s amazing.

George: 6:59
Okay. So you’re also creating future backers for the community. So that’s great. So yeah, I just want to clarify when you say models, because in games, you also have. Game pieces that they can be called models, but you’re referring to actual people. Okay. Yes, please continue what else needs to go on this page?

Tim: 7:14
Yeah, so aside from photos I think gifs are a big one Especially for me as like a consumer perspective because I always look to see what are the mechanics in these games and what appeals to? Me so if one game says, one action is to put a meeple on The tower. Then I want to be able to see that gif going there because then again you get to see scale, you get to see relatability, you get to see a summary instead of actually reading through text. Because for me, I don’t typically read. It’s biased since I’m a photographer. I like to just see photos. So if I can see photos, if I can see GIFs animating for me, and it’ll tell me a lot more of the story, and then I’ll go back and read the little snippets. But I usually like campaign pages where it’s very text less and more photo heavy.

George: 7:54
If we can break that down in terms of a page, so let’s imagine a crowdfunding page. We have obviously our main graphic. What makes a good main graphic? Is that the box with all the components out?

Tim: 8:06
That’s a great question because I feel like in 2024, things are definitely different now that so many people are crowdfunding pages more or crowdfunding games more. And for me, I feel like that intro graphic to see everything, like the big component shot with box, like you said, is a really great header. But then after that I want to see mechanics right away. I like, I think before. It still works now, but I think before it was way heavier where you see 100 minis and 10 resources, 10, 000 resources, and you have all these listing for components. I don’t think that works as much as it used to. I think now people want to see the meat and substance of the game because every game. Has beautiful components nowadays. And I feel like what stands out is the mechanics now. So I’ve, I’m starting to see this shift, at least in my viewers and the people that I talked to that are buying these games, that they love seeing the components of course, and that is going to be the attention grabber, but it’s not going to be as substantial if you can’t back that up with these are mechanics, because then that’s when people hit back,

George: 9:07
So your ideal page is. A main graphic still with the box and the components and then going into mechanics gifs Things that move things that kind of explain in a few short images or visuals The core principles of the game and then everything below that can just be It’s just extra it’s just the things that you need to take off like, you know What is actually in the box and stretch goals and whatnot? Is that kind of your ideal campaign page?

Tim: 9:38
Yes, definitely. Because I just feel like it’s definitely a shift from what it used to be a couple of years ago. I feel like 2024, there’s a big shift in header. Here’s what I get. And pretty much everything that is going to save them time. Animated gifs, here’s the mechanics. And then if they want to find out more, if they’re backing for like higher level tiers and like the deluxe tiers, and of course, then they want to see what’s more involved, but if you want to get like that first kind of base level game In there and a base level gameplay, then I feel like that’s such a big hook and sink

George: 10:10
yeah I think that if the first 30 percent of the page should do all the selling and everything else is just extra, because there’s a lot of people that just, that don’t really want to go. As deep and yeah, you got to be convinced the first 30 percent totally agree with you there. So very Practically speaking when you’re developing a game a lot of folks, you know You surf first you prototype something with pen and paper you’re printing things Then you’re getting more professional then you’re getting prototypes made maybe one offs at which point are prototypes ready to be photographed by you? Can they still be 3d printed or have do they need to be, fully manufactured? What stage can it be in?

Tim: 10:52
Oh, that’s a wonderful question. I think if they’re focusing only on the campaign, then 3d printed models are fine because I do work. With a ton of prototypes and as long as the publisher knows that this is the quality that you’re going to show backers and then that’s fine. I know it’s arbitrary, but once they’re happy with a specific quality and like the miniatures and all the resources, then that’s perfect for photos. But sometimes we’ll have publishers that want to use them as both. So they will get a prototype that looks very close to the end product. And then they’ll wait. Until like after the campaign or something and then take photos that way they can show like, Hey, for late pledges and for retail that’s coming out here, the photos that we can use for both. So I guess it just depends on the level of production that they’re planning to invest in upfront.

George: 11:38
And the minimum would be 3d printed is fine. But it does need to come. It doesn’t need to be like a manufacturing sample, from the factory, at least the cards and the paper components.

Tim: 11:48
Because sometimes they’ll have like prototypes made in a local like warehouse. I forget the different companies like off the top of my head. But yeah, sometimes I’ll have a local warehouse that they’ll make a prototype where it gets very close to the end product. And that’s what they’ll send me. And they don’t always have to include like 3D printed items. They could, a lot of times I just get just a card game or something,

George: 12:08
okay. Okay. So that’s, so you don’t need to be done with your first batch of manufacturing, obviously, because you’re raising funds for that. But it has to look good, right? We, people cannot show up with things that they Glue together themselves,

Tim: 12:20
right? That would be I feel like they’re, they might be shooting themselves in the foot because if you’re anticipating backers feedback, then they’re going to ask about the materials like, Hey, so is this going to be reflective of the final product? Like they’re just, you basically want to anticipate the questions that backers going to ask. And if you’re accepting that this is the quality that you’re going to have Questions for, then that’s what you go with. So it definitely depends. Yeah.

George: 12:45
For folks listening to this, who might be a little bit early in their journey or do not get half the funds to hire an amazing professional like yourself, and they just want to take some pictures at home if nothing else, just to get the ball rolling. What kind of tips do you have for folks to make great photos at home on a shoestring budget?

Tim: 13:05
That’s a wonderful question because I initially started with one camera, one lens, and one piece of paper. That’s literally, like, all you need and a light. I would invest in an Amazon$40 light, and there are also tons of different wallpapers you can use. If you just want to keep it standard, just buy it. Like an Amazon product listing, a white piece of paper, doesn’t matter where you get it from. So you have a white piece of paper just to use as a background. You have one light to angle it from the side, that would give a nice shadow. People make a big mistake here where they try to get a ton of lights and they put it from all over the place. But if you have just one light, focused here, it looks way more professional because then the shadows are just off to one side. You give a more 3D effect versus putting light here. They think that the more lights that you have and filling in all the shadows, then it looks better. But in reality, it looks very amateurish if you get shadows from all over the place. And I still see that now in the professional world too. So it’s better to just have one light angled here, one piece of. Paper right there. And then if you can get a macro lens, which is typically like$800, I know that’s pretty expensive too, but like on the lens side, at least in the photography world, it is the cheapest, one of the cheapest types of lenses. You can rent them as well, right? And you can rent them as well for$15,$20 a day. So there

George: 14:15
you

Tim: 14:15
go. If you get a macro lens, along with a white piece of paper and a light you’re set up to go and you can have a ton of good quality pictures.

George: 14:24
Wow, so that’s it. And do you recommend folks do this with their iPhone or they should really invest in a camera, rent a camera and the lens?

Tim: 14:34
Yeah. And nowadays our phones take amazing quality photos and there are even apps where it will just take a photo of the component and then it’ll, Remove the background completely. So if your budget is limited, go with the phone, yeah. So like I always say, especially nowadays, like our phones could shoot in 4K too for video. They do pretty amazing things

George: 14:53
That$40 Amazon light may be the most important thing that folks might be missing otherwise is that what you’re saying?

Tim: 14:59
Yeah. I, if you were to invest in one thing, and even for me, if I were to go back, I would invest in a light first before a camera, because the light will change everything.

George: 15:08
Interesting. That’s great. That’s great news for folks, because those are, like you said, the cheapest. And maybe we can put a link in the show notes with some good options. That’s super, super helpful. You’ve done a lot of shoots. You’ve worked with Jamie Stegmaier, open house studios, Frosthaven, like the list goes on and on. But what has been the most awesome shoot that you have ever done and why?

Tim: 15:32
Oh, that’s a great question. The most awesome shoot. I, so there is one that’s coming up that I want to talk about soon. And when it comes out, I definitely will be talking all about that, but. Before that, I think the, one of the coolest shoots that we got to do was a shoot called Phantom West. So it was a board game and it was all Western themed. And this was different because it was an indie publisher and they really believed in this vision. And the idea that I pitched them was, Hey, I want to do this tutorial where we are out in the desert and we are all, we have set dressing, we have a design artist and everything there, and, We want to make this as immersive as possible. So that project ended up taking three months to film and about a year to finish fully edit, we actually just wrapped up the project a couple weeks ago. So it was amazing because you get to see. this next level of production in board games where we’re actually on a desert set and it was just so satisfying to film because it really complemented the board game and I feel like that’s the level of production that I want to do moving forward if publishers are interested in that kind of thematic idea because it’s different and people remember those kind of visual imagery so doing a set like that and just being with a giant team and production is just it’s amazing to work with.

George: 16:49
That is super cool. And also that must’ve cost a small fortune.

Tim: 16:55
Yeah, it was for production wise for three months of filming. It was it was a big budget. So I think over the course of three months, but this was after that they funded, this is something that they looked for for distributing the remaining copies that they have left after the campaign.

George: 17:12
Oh, that is so cool. That is so interesting. I never realized that people when once the money is in the bank, obviously they have these bigger budgets and then they can come back to you and make even better assets because yeah, they can just grow their company with that. That is super, super cool. This is, I think is a great example basically leading into my next question, I was going to ask you what are some of the things that you just cannot do at home that are things that you need to hire a professional like yourself for? So what are the things that if people want to achieve these things, they must work with someone like you.

Tim: 17:44
I think the biggest thing that comes to mind is definitely when it comes to models. If you are looking for a diverse cast of people people think, cause I think these are the most deceptive kind of photos because they look ridiculously easy. Like someone’s holding a board game piece, but there’s so many more details that go into that one shot because we have to rent out a set. We have to coordinate, cast the models and even my models too, like they’re so experienced now where they can read us and I know this because recently on a different lifestyle shoot, I had all brand new models and they’re more versed into like fashion and sports, but when you bring them into board games, it actually becomes way more technical because they don’t They haven’t fully learned our like board game nuances yet, like the way we place cards onto maps, like the things that we think that are just so subtle and just so straightforward to us. It actually doesn’t come as straightforward to people that are outside of that niche. So when you have a brand new set of models, you have to teach them, you teach them the game. And again, like I’m trying to make it as authentic as possible. So we’re actually playing through the game. We have a ton of equipment to make sure everything is. spot on. We have a big team. I have second, third, four shooters nowadays. I think when it comes to publishers looking for a mass marketing opportunity to show their games out, especially for like smaller games and strategy games, and those are The types of shoots that they probably want to invest higher in.

George: 19:09
Yeah. You obviously don’t want to have models that hold a card upside down and then see that in that’s happening.

Tim: 19:16
Yeah. That’s happened. It’s happened plenty of times and they don’t realize it. And I don’t realize it because there’s, we have a set for an hour or two. So it’s just, it’s quick and sometimes I miss it. And sometimes like they’re not fully sure or their hands are blocking like the text of the cards. And I know later on people are gonna be like, I can’t read the card. And I’m like, I know you’re thinking ahead of time. So that’s why.

George: 19:37
I guess people can get sort of V1 done at home, maybe with friends with some Amazon lights. That’s a great way to get started. It’s, it may also be a great way to just pitch your game to people who you just to see if you are interested, but if you want to go professional, if you want to have a beautiful Kickstarter campaign, you need to work with someone like you, if nothing else, just for the whole production that goes with it. And the models and yeah. And your friends might not be the right, might not always be the right models for your game. Yeah. Okay. That makes a ton of sense. What are some of the games that, and campaigns that you are very excited for that are coming up? This summer.

Tim: 20:19
Oh, this summer. Huh. This summer. I don’t know if there’s a particular campaign off the top of my head. I actually just did a video all about five games that I’m backing and everything. Those are the games that I think some of them are finishing already super boss monster from brotherwise games and everything. But. I am actually very excited for games that are going to be delivering very soon. So ARX is a big one by Leader Games. Yeah, ARX, I’m very excited about.

George: 20:45
What about it specifically are you excited about in ARX?

Tim: 20:49
For ARX, it’s because of the publisher themselves, so Leader Games. I’m a huge fan of all their titles. So to have ARX finally coming out, and I did get to play the prototype of ARX when it first was announced before the campaign, and it was so much fun. I love the battle mechanics there, I love the asymmetry, and I’m just a huge fan of their games overall. So I know ARX is going to be a great hit, and it’s delivering very soon, so I know it’s going to be amazing. That’s definitely one big one. And Andromeda’s Edge is another one I’m very excited for to be delivered this year.

George: 21:21
Cool. I think a lot of people who like board games have a problem of shelf space. They, they do not have enough space. You work in board games. Do you, so you must get a ton of samples and even more like, how do you even find the time to, to play everything?

Tim: 21:39
I wish I did. Actually, right now back there, I have Oathsworn set up for solo play, but it’s just so rare because I always need that table to film. So it’s if I get a play, maybe it’s like an hour or two, I’m not going to rip everything off and then, and play either games for work or it’s mostly games for work. I rarely get personal time, but it would be amazing though. And then for shelf space, yeah, like that, actually that, Back corner over there, the black corner over there, that’s full of prototypes. It’s like a ton of prototypes. I think it’s like over 20 prototypes over there. And I try to email publishers right after, but I get lost in it. And it’s usually just like a communication thing on my end, because I just get, started on the next project and I’m like, Oh, forget about shipping back the old one. So I haven’t really managed it really very well.

George: 22:23
Yeah. I think that’s everyone seems to have that problem. Oathsworn, by the way they were on this, one of the early episodes in this podcast, awesome story as well. So if you were yeah, anyone listening to this and you haven’t listened to that episode, highly recommend it that those guys, that game is just so big, Oh my gosh. Like these, They don’t even speak about like shipping units anymore. They talk about shipping like tons like kilograms. Like it’s crazy just how big that is, but you have it set up now.

Tim: 22:51
Yes. I have a set up now. I’m working through the story. I’m almost halfway through the game already. So

George: 22:55
amazing. What are some of the final pieces of advice, tips that you have for creators, starting publishers? that are thinking about starting a crowdfunding campaign because you’ve seen so many of them move through this journey. If you could give the best piece of advice you could give to folks listening, what would that be?

Tim: 23:15
Oh, on spot, George. Okay. I think from a photography Videography perspective, I think it is worth it to wait a little bit. That way you can invest in, in good quality marketing assets. Because at the end of the day, people aren’t going to read as much as you think. People are definitely going to be visual, visually stimulated. I If you can wait and invest on some very good photos and videos, whether you take them yourself or not, it doesn’t matter, but whether you can wait to get those marketing assets to really truly represent your game and the quality for what it is and the gameplay that you really want to showcase. Then I think that’s going to be a worth the time investment that you spend.

George: 23:55
Yeah, I think that’s a great piece of advice. Also because. People may not realize that with a great campaign page comes great conversion and great conversion rates. So like you said, if you’re investing a little bit more in your assets, you’ll have a page that just converts better. So the visitors that hit your page or the ads that you’re running through that page, they will just turn into more. Pledges if your page looks great and if it’s easy to understand for people, just a few simple visuals. So I think it’s great advice also just from a financial perspective to wait a little, invest a little bit more and it will pay itself off once the campaign is live. So yeah, that’s a great piece of advice.

Tim: 24:36
Cause I feel like you can have the best game ever with the most premium components, but if it can’t translate visually, then you go on this arc where you go downward instead of upwards. So if you have a great game and you just believe in all these amazing mechanics and this production, you might as well just finish it off and have someone, whether it be yourself or anyone else, showcase that game as best as it can be.

George: 25:00
I love it. Great advice, Tim. Thank you so much for coming on the pod and sharing your wisdom with folks. We are going to have in the show notes, your YouTube channel, your website, if you want to book Tim. Do you still have slots available this year? Folks want to work with you? Yes,

Tim: 25:15
absolutely. Absolutely.

George: 25:17
Okay, amazing. So we’re going to link to Tim’s website so you can work with him. And see his YouTube channel, which I highly recommend because your YouTube channel is awesome. It not only has great tips on how to do photography and videography, but also you talk about great games. So we’re going to have that in the show notes and let’s see if we can put a An amazon link in the show notes for a light that is tim approved. I think that would be Awesome. So thank you so much. Tim. It’s been a real pleasure

Tim: 25:46
Thank you so much for having me, George, and best of luck to everyone listening on this for the campaign. I’m so excited to see what everyone comes up with. And yeah, thank you so much for having me. It’s been amazing.

George: 25:55
It’s been amazing. Thank you.