Jack's Magic Mushrooms: the Mycelia Story

[00:00:00]

George: Hi there. My name is George and I help independent creators launch their products and games. On this podcast. Those creators share their journey from an idea to an actual product and everything in between. Today’s guest is Jack Neville. He’s the founder of Split Stone Games, and Jack raised over $550,000 with his breakout Hit Mycelia.

George: Welcome Jack. Cheers.

Jack: Hello. Cheers.

George: So Jack is drinking a beer. He is from the uk. Cheers!

Jack: Cheers. Yes, I am. Yeah. I’m from the uk,

Jack: sunny England,

George: Where in sunny England are you based

Jack: On the South coast in a town directly below London.

George: Brighton? Oh, Worthing.

Jack: I’m actually, I’m, I was born in Brighton and

Jack: grew up there, but I moved to Worthing

George: okay.

Jack: How come, you know Brighton, then.

George: I used to live in London for a while. And then obviously Brighton is just . I love it. Blackpool Brighton. I love all those beach times in the UK. They’re just,

Jack: nice

George: it’s something else. I like it. But you [00:01:00] closed your campaign about three months ago, a as we’re recording this today massive hit.

George: What are you doing now? You’re like, th three months after your campaign closed, you had 10,000 backers. What does your life look like today?

Jack: It’s been, most recently just sorting out and getting prototypes from my manufacturer. Ironing out all the little details, little colors wrong here, things slightly if iffy, but generally, yeah it’s going really well. I’ve got there. The almost final prototype through the door the other day, and it looks really nice.

Jack: It’s um, it feels like I’m uh, I’ve made a real board game, when it came and everything was there and just had the shrink grandpa and yeah, it was good. It exciting.

George: Good, you’re not stressed. You’re, you feel like

George: oh

Jack: No, I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m not stressed. The only kind of stressful bit was, the kind of the few days before the Kickstarter launch. ’cause you’re just nervous. I wouldn’t say stress, more nerves. ’cause you put so much into this project and you’re like, I dunno if he’s gonna do well or not.

Jack: Um, But like, luckily it did. So yeah, [00:02:00] it was, it was all good.

George: we’re gonna get to that ’cause it did really well. And, and, And I want to know how you did do so well. But let’s go back to the start. What was, or is your day job before you became a revered game publisher?

Jack: I um, was, I should say Graphic Designer and slash illustrator. And I’ve been working for myself, had my own old design company for about seven, eight years. And before that, working in different studios around the Brighton area and a few in London. So yeah, that’s my background, graphic design which is useful when making a board game, that’s for sure.

George: Yeah, totally. And it really shows as well because I think one of the, one of the big draws of this game is just how beautifully designed it is.

George: So then what is that moment in your life where you’re graphic designer, you’re a freelancer. You have your clients and then you think, I am going to make my own game and I’m going to launch it.

George: Like how did you get to that [00:03:00] point?

Jack: The first idea I had for Mycelia was a long time ago, like 20 19. And we played board games for a fair while, and there’s a lot of great out there. But some of ’em look quite terrible. But they’re really fun to play. But I’m a I like the aesthetics and I always thought, oh, I’d love to redesign a game. And I just thought well, maybe I’ll just make my own game instead of rehashing the same thing. And and I did do a few terrible ideas before Mycelia. But yeah, it was around 2019 it’s taken a while to get there, but basically I just thought it’d be fun to do. That’s the short answer. I just thought it’d be fun. Let’s just try it and always have ideas knocking around.

Jack: And with my Celia, I thought this one actually has legs and it felt like mushrooms were popular or beginning to get popular. Yeah, I just thought just do it

George: I think this begs the question that [00:04:00] probably a lot of you have answered. You, were there actual mushrooms involved? In the development of this game?

Jack: What type of mushrooms?

George: You tell me.

Jack: mushrooms or taste no. Not the magic kind. Not in the development of the game, though.

George: Okay. I have to ask. It’s the

George: obvious Yeah,

George: You think this is a great idea? I’m just gonna go for it. Where do you start? What do you start with A Google search, how to launch a game. What resources did you find? What was your starting point?

Jack: honestly, it was more the science really that kind of fed the mechanics. And I didn’t really, to be honest, I didn’t really do too much research into how to make a game. I just thought, I just want the game to be fun.

Jack: That’s, that was my main aim to be fun and beautiful. And as I was kind of progressing and making the game. You learn a lot doing early prototypes, like when someone goes, [00:05:00] what, what’s going on? And people get confused. You need to make things like as simple and as fun as possible.

Jack: So that was my aim.

George: But that’s on the gaming side, but then obviously. There, there’s something missing here between that and raising over half a million dollars. ’cause that, that just doesn’t happen overnight. So then what else did you do other than making a fun game that looks good to to, to prepare for this, for this

Jack: What to, what? To lead up to the Kickstarter,

George: Yeah.

Jack: I had this game and it was fun and basically I’ve been known to start things and never finished them. many little projects, whether it’s, designing this or that. And I just thought, I’m just gonna, I’m just gonna do it.

Jack: And so I just, I gave myself a year, so it’ll be September, 2022. I was like, I’m gonna give myself a year and just really go all in. My plan I spoke to a lot of people. I think that’s what one of the main things that helped me just, and luckily in the board game industry, everyone’s just so lovely.

Jack: They’re like, yeah, I’ll chat to you. So [00:06:00] I spoke to a few different, like indie publishers around the uk. I joined this discord of indie UK publishers and that I suppose as the nice little resource, just, ask a random question about whatever. But you just slowly learn to build a picture about what you need to do.

Jack: What I learned is uh, just mailing list, just get your mailing list as big as possible. So that was my aim. I went to a couple conventions that seemed quite useful just to build the confidence and basically there was a convention in my, in Worthing called Paradise, which is a nice small board game convention and that kind of, it was a good practice almost for UKG where, you practice your spiel and how to grab people’s attention and how to display the game. And yeah, so I think the convention really helped. I got hundreds and hundreds of people sign up for the mailing list there which really helped. And you just, it’s a great place to a random bunch of not random bunch of board gamers, but outside of York’s kinda circles, just [00:07:00] to see your game. And I think I really tried at UK Expo to make my stand as kind of striking as beautiful as possible. People ask me a lot of time why do you think it’s been successful?

Jack: And I think all it is. Always very simple. this is the secret guys. I think one is luck. Two, I think. Basically because I’ve spent so much time on the aesthetics and making it as beautiful as possible, they kinda just get the foot in the door and people go, oh, what’s that? And then they’re interested and then they start to look and then they learn about the game and they go, oh, that has legs. So it’s not just, just a pretty face sort of thing. I think that’s the way, how it worked at the conventions. What else did I do to build up the main list, I did some advertising on meta.

George: how did that go?

Jack: good. Yeah. Luckily one of my old school friends, she runs this marketing agency in London trapeze Media. Shout out to Kitty. And she helped me do the ads. Basically what I did all the visuals and the videos

George: Mm-Hmm.

Jack: but she helped to [00:08:00] run them, and that was really good because the back end of meta is just.

George: It’s a lot.

Jack: It’s this. I feel like they’ve made it purposely complicated.

George: Yeah.

George: Well, actually they have I’m convinced they have I, we, it’s what we do for a living and basically meta’s whole philosophies that they’d rather have agencies run ads versus individual advertisers or small individual advertisers. Just to follow best practices and so I, I 100% agree.

George: I think that backend is made for people who do

George: have no other purpose in life other than meta ads and will just yeah,

Jack: Yeah.

Jack: I’m not, I.

Jack: I’m not like a technophobe or anything like that. I’m good at computers and I’ve worked with a lot. I’ve built websites and stuff, but that, I was just like, what is going on I just completely like, and I’d have to log in at different stages. It just blew my mind. I didn’t have much of a budget at all. I I basically just had the last bit of money. I had a bit of savings because I, so I almost put everything into this. I was like, hopefully it [00:09:00] works out. Otherwise I’d be completely broke. But I put some money into kind of getting emails and that just that helped. And also reddit has been very good.

George: How, what was your Reddit strategy? What, how did you get that to work for you?

Jack: Basically, I’d do four designs and be like, which ones you reckon works? And in my head I knew which one I thought would work the most. But to, but saying that a lot of the time they did actually on one of the things, like the, I’ll give, show some, the back of the cards. Like on one of the designs, I, it was just the pattern and I just thought, I’m Alex. Cool. Minimal. And then a lot of people just saying, put their name on the back. ’cause when people were like, playing a board game cafe or something could be free advertising. And I was against it, but then the more I thought about it, the more feedback I was like, yeah.

Jack: So it’s great. It’s great game feedback. And because I was kind of posting at different stages, the cut design or one of the tile designs or the box design, I think people on Reddit.liked seeing the journey and I did meet a lot of people at conventions like Essen and UKG that were just like, [00:10:00] oh I’m on the Reddit, I’ve been following you.

Jack: I think just asking for feedback, which I did find very useful. Just get, trying to get honest feedback. And and I guess again, is the people thought the designs were good,

Jack: so it caught their eye. What else I did? I think one thing that actually did jump up my Kickstarter, or like people taking notice was the video. Got made. Luckily my friend, my best friend chip is a amazing videographer which really counts in this situation. So he made did you see the video on the Kickstarter

George: beautiful.

Jack: When I’m walking around the woods? Yeah. He helped me film that and edit it, do it together. And I think that I placed that on some Reddit groups and board game stuff, and I think one of ’em really kicked off and I got 2000 views in one day, which is really good. So I think that helped too, you want something familiar, but slightly different because you don’t wanna scare people and be like, oh my God, what’s this game? It’s too complicated, it’s too scary. But also you wanna be slightly different. So you are not just the same.[00:11:00] There’s hundreds of board games on there and a lot of them have those computer generated. CGI board game pieces coming down, a voiceover.

Jack: When I started, that’s what I wanted. It was only circumstance and the fact I had no money, I thought I need to put in favors from friends. So you know what I had a prototype, I had a red suit, and I had the woods nearby and my friendship.

Jack: So we just did it that way. But luckily he’s incredible and makes things look, he made me look so, so handsome on there. So did.

George: Yeah. It’s funny that you say that you did this without money because everything you do looks very expensive. Like I’ve seen your booth at spiel looks expensive. Your designs look expensive, your video looks expensive. Then we have . The great kitty who is a marketing expert who probably did, a great job at ads.

George: So it, it looks like you have a very, it, very professional team around you and a lot of resources to bring this campaign to life. That’s what it appeared to me at least from [00:12:00] the outside. But then you actually just, you kinda just brought that together with favors from friends and

George: Oh you still had.

Jack: I was doing it on absolute shoestring. So I think I was just I’m lucky to have Chip with the videos and I’m lucky to have Kitty with the marketing with that kind of the Facebook ads, which really helped. But honestly, I was so like, focused and driven ’cause I just basically gave, set myself this goal and I was just like I need to do it.

Jack: So I, I just did everything.

Jack: But and some things I had to, learn, tabletop simulator. I’m sure people pay people to make theirs, but I just learned how to do it. And all the graphic design, all the illustration I’ve done myself, the website did myself. So lucky. I have a lot of skills what most board game publishers spend the money on, like illustrators and designers yeah, I, I didn’t spend a huge amount on it. I did put pretty much every last penny I had into it.

George: That’s why

George: you’re so calm now. When I asked at the beginning of the interview like, why, you’re so calm [00:13:00] after having your 10,000 orders to fulfill, but you’re so calm because you didn’t lose all your money.

Jack: yeah, maybe. Yeah. Don’t get me wrong, you caught me a good time. But sometimes you do feel a bit like. Anxious oh my God, there’s 10 a half thousand people like relying on me and what I need to do. But the game’s done. It’s just about selling it to them. Can’t be too hard, I’m working with a good companies for that so, yeah.

George: Final question about your pre-launch phase. So you’ve got the band together, Chip, kitty, and Jack are doing this,

George: , which is, it just sounds like a great band name. You raised about a hundred thousand dollars in your first 48 hours from what I could see online. Do you remember what the sort of, the split was and where that funding came from in, in terms of you gathered all these emails. Do you know if the majority of those emails came from the events? Did the majority come from the ads? Did the majority come from Reddit?

Jack: I would say, I can’t remember all the numbers. [00:14:00] I think a third of them maybe came from conventions and Reddit and Instagram. All the stuff that I just was just organic stuff that I’ve worked at. And then the other two thirds. In fact it’s probably a quarter of a quarter organic and then three quarters paid for, I reckon for that mailing

Jack: list. And but that was just the mailing list.

Jack: And then that, then there was also the pre-sign ups on Kickstarter, which it’s hard to gauge ’cause you are not sure if those people are already on your main list or they’re or they’re different. So but that was like, that was gaining a lot of tr I think I was just under 2000 before I went live and I had some advice saying, you need to wait for 4,000.

Jack: I was like, nah, I’m just gonna go for it. Because the reason why I wanted to go for it’s ’cause I knew that Elizabeth Hargrave was releasing Undergrove later. They just said, autumn. I knew it was on the horizon, so I just wanted to get in there before that. ’cause she’s a bigger name. And it was also about mushrooms.

George: I think that is a very, um, very important sort of, uh, word [00:15:00] of wisdom there, that you do wanna make sure that the, the period you launch in, you don’t have too much competition from people who also happen to do something with mushrooms or something similar in your niche.

George: Especially if you’re the kind of the smaller, person or team of the two. You definitely want to go first

Jack: and it was the, the timing I did, I did think quite a lot about timing. I was, I was thinking about you should launch on them tuesday or a Monday, but I chose a Thursday because I think Thursday the seventh. ’cause my thinking was, I’m not sure how, I think it’s different in the US you get paid every two weeks.

George: Yeah. That’s right.

Jack: In the UK it’s, you get paid every month. if I did it on the seventh, you people have just been paid. And then if I was doing a month um, campaign, then they’d run over two paychecks almost. And also I timed it, so I would be at Essen the last couple of days.

George: Mm-Hmm.

Jack: be like a little, rush of extra people towards the end or extra eyes on it. And plus it’s almost peak um, mushroom season in, in the uk. [00:16:00] So it’s in people’s minds, it’s not. Like hot summer when there’s not many mushrooms about, it’s, I wanted to be slightly autumnal so as like people as in people’s kind of psyche.

George: I was surprised to see you end your campaign at spiel because we had a booth there as well last year, and it is a lot of work to be there and have a booth and speak to people and whatnot. And what’s also a lot of work is wrapping up a Kickstarter campaign in the last couple days. So how did that turn out for you?

Jack: I mean, It was uh, yeah, it was a bit mad and also it was really stupid, so I forgot my laptop So in the evenings I was like uh, try to do stuff on my mobile and the Kickstarter mobile app. It’s great if you’re backing stuff, but if you are running a campaign, it is.

George: Yeah.

Jack: And yeah, so that, that was a bit stressful. Luckily, my friend who was with me he had laptop. We, I could borrow it every now and again, but yeah, it was a [00:17:00] bit silly, I think. But at the same time, I, I, this is my first campaign. I

George: Yeah, for sure.

Jack: my first Essen, I didn’t know how mad I was gonna be, whether I was gonna have much interest. And basically I just put like a message just saying, I’m at Essen I’m not gonna be replying to stuff. Have fun!

George: Great. That’s a great communication plan. Just so you’re backers in the last couple days well I’m not here, you guys just

Jack: yeah,

Jack: All the information’s there to

George: yeah. You know where to find me.

George: Essen If you have a question, you can

Jack: yeah.

George: fly, over to Germany and just ask

George: me at the booth.

George: Yeah.

Jack: Yeah, probably not the best move, it’s

George: Well, But did you get people at the booth actually backing there and then, ’cause that’s always what I wonder. Email signups. I get it. But backing, do people do that as well?

Jack: Yeah, so basically what I thought, my kind of thinking is that when you’re at conventions and stuff, everyone’s selling their own, look at my game. Look at my game. And you want to give something back if they’re doing something for you. So at UKG and this [00:18:00] Little Paradise in Worthing. For getting people’s probably shouldn’t tell everyone my secrets. Now I’ll tell everyone my secrets. Basically I was like, sign up for the main list. But instead of doing that, it’s if you start up the main list, you get to play this game. And the game was roll the dice and then, depending on what numbers you got, you could win anything from a fist bump to a free art print. So people were like tempted. A lot of those people that signed up for that game. Had no interest. They just wanted the free art print or they just love gambling. But I just thought what a board gamers love best is that’s just rolling a dice and seeing if they win or not So I did that and that was a great way to give something,

Jack: but also get something in return. Kind of give them take, and then at Essen, just to tempt people more to back there. And then, because I. I’ve had a lot of advice saying don’t do your Kickstarter at a convention. ’cause people wanna buy stuff there and then, and they’ve got their budget of, a hundred dollars or whatever and they’re not gonna [00:19:00] buy your game ’cause they’re not gonna get it and take it home and play it straight away.

Jack: But I I made by this exclusive Essen print poster. So they’ll get something there. And then again, just to tip

George: That is smart.

Jack: So yeah I with everything, I think if someone’s giving you something, you just give ’em something turn. You see so many people like, sign up for the mailing list.

Jack: But why you just gonna barrage me with rubbish emails,

George: probably

George: Yeah, true. Well, and it’s people are suckers for freebies. It works like people love a pin or stickers or anything. Especially if they’re beautifully designed. I think you can probably, that’s where. Your design skills are just such a superpower in this because anything designed by you, like anything from that game is just something you want to have.

George: So I think that makes a ton of sense.

George: There was one other thing that I thought was super interesting about your campaign. You have one reward that is the opulent edition. It’s over $750 And 46 people backed it. That’s over [00:20:00] $34,000 just from this one ridiculously opulent reward. Tell us like how that came to be.

Jack: Its silly, isn’t it? It’s really silly.

George: It’s great. It’s brilliant. I love it.

Jack: yeah. Basically I I made this. Wooden version of Catan years ago again, remember what I said about the beginning of saying games. I just thought I could redesign this and make it look more beautiful. I did that with Catan. I made this wooden version and I slightly changed it like I changed the pigs to sheep, uh, most, the sheep to pig just because, I dunno why just pigs are more interesting. And so I made this whole game and I wanted it to be a bit like the Jumanji board. Do you know Jumanji,

Jack: the original film, the nineties one, it opens up. So it was all that kind of idea in nice wooden pieces. And I was like, so I’ve done that and I, and it worked really well. I just made one.

Jack: And and I just thought maybe I should do a fancy one for Mycelia. I was expecting [00:21:00] to maybe sell one, maybe two, maybe three at maximum. Because it’s a lot of work. ’cause I’m basically, I’m making all those so that’s why I’m making, I need to do that this year, which is a bit mad. Yeah, a lot of cutting and sanding wood and stain wood. But

George: And you sold 46.

Jack: yeah, 46.

George: Who are those people?

Jack: Looking at the stats, they’re mostly Americans. And also it’s a, it’s a flagship, a kind of a fancy version where people go, Ooh, and then they go I can’t afford that, so I’ll go for the one down

George: that too. I love this strategy because I often advise creators to do this because there’s this theory with fancy restaurants where they say they, they just put something ridiculously expensive on the menu, like a $300 steak. And you think that’s something I can’t afford.

George: But then an $80 pasta bowl seems , pretty reasonable

George: compared to that. And that just works. So was that what you had in mind? [00:22:00] Was it more for the price anchoring? I.

Jack: It was sort of, but also to be honest, I. I Had a friend, an old school friend who I hadn’t spoken to for years, but he had a really successful Kickstarter about five years ago. The Wilson Wolf Affair. I’m not sure if I remember or not, crazy game, but it, it did, it did really well.

Jack: And I just rang him up randomly and said advice and we were chatting about this wooden version and he was just like, oh yeah, you just. You just have to have just like a mad version and just do it at any price. ’cause there’ll be one person that will just buy it , because they’ll just have where money’s just no objects there.

Jack: And I was just going, that can’t be real I just, I could not think about saving that much money on a board game. But yeah, it’s, apparently there’s people out there, which is great for me, I guess. but also, yeah, it’s mad. Just didn’t,

George: in hindsight. Maybe you went too cheap.

Jack: Maybe Yeah.

Jack: I may, yeah, I mean may I should have made it like two grand, [00:23:00] then sold two. I made my life easier. Easier.

George: Exactly.

Jack: I wouldn’t yeah, I mean, it’s, suppose it’s it’d be, it’d be nice to make them, get something a bit more tactile and get off the computer.

George: Yeah.

George: And also I think you should really take it as a compliment that people love what you do so much, and the quality of your work is so high that people have absolutely no issue spending that amount of money. On something because they just love what you do so much. So when we’re talking about this strategy and people out there listening this will only work for you if you produce something really beautiful

George: This doesn’t just work on any

Jack: Yeah,

George: thing.

Jack: Like I’m all about making really, really nice quality you can probably tell from the design, I spend a lot of time thinking about it and working on it, but I’m not with this wooden version. Oh yeah.

Jack: Maybe that’s why people think, yeah. Oh, I’ll spend that money. ’cause it’s not gonna tear up like a shoebox. It’s gonna be.

George: Not like what all the other backers are gonna get, but Yeah.

Jack: Oh, no. No, that’s they’re gonna be, I’m going over every detail it’s not just the winning version. Don’t worry

Jack: I wanna have [00:24:00] a game where like, I’m like super proud of it.

Jack: Like, you know, You just like, you open up, you’re like, yeah, this is nice.

George: Yeah. I feel like you’re gonna accomplish that mission pretty easily. What’s next for you? Are you going to, are you gonna be a game publisher from now on? Is graphic design just for graphic design out the door? Is there gonna be a new game coming up? What’s the future?

Jack: Yeah. I’ve, yeah, so I it’s a weird thing to do, but I’ve decided to yeah, pivot and to become a board game publisher which is weird. ’cause, you know, September, what, maybe like four months ago. I was, I was wondering whether I was gonna, you know, raise 10 grand. Um, but Yes, now I’ve decided to go full publisher because uh, yeah, ’cause it’s fun. It’s, It’s so fun. I mean, it’s, It’s hard work, but I, I love it. Um, And the kind of next steps is on the horizon, I think. Uh, A bit. Well, Priority one is getting the game [00:25:00] to everyone on time and make sure the quality’s good, and also doing all these wooden versions, And uh, and then I think I’ve started to work on some ideas for an expansion for Mycelium because it’s got, it’s just, it’s similar in the way that there’s like thousands of mushrooms and. in the way to Wingspan where there’s lots of opportunity for expansions. I’m quite undecided what route I’m gonna go down. So whether it’s like, you know, American mushrooms or south American. Yeah. So I could go down that route or different types of mushrooms, maybe bioluminescent ones. That’d be quite cool with fancy printing, whatever. So that’s on the table started to formulate some ideas. And then I’ve also started my next game as well. I’ve started to mess around with ideas. So yeah there’s definitely gonna be an expansion for Mycelia and another game on the horizon about something else.

George: Amazing.

Jack: it’s gonna be a nature theme.

Jack: [00:26:00] It’s gonna be a nature theme. So it’s gonna be similar scientific kind of quiet grownup. Yeah, the similar playing of Mycelia Rocks,

Jack: Okay.

George: Okay. It’s not gonna be emotion, it’s not gonna be rocks. So people, if you want to take a stab at this, just look around in nature. Anything that’s not a rock or a mushroom

Jack: Just look around. Yeah. But yeah, I mean I, yeah I don’t really wanna say exactly what it’s, ’cause I may just, end up, once I start playing the game and testing it, it may not be fun. It’s a weird thing. ’cause I came up with this idea, as I said, like four, almost. Yeah. Four years ago, maybe five years ago now. And it’s been quite a long time since I’ve actually. Developed another game. All the design and artwork and like marketing. And I was like, oh. Again oh, how do,

George: Chip and Kitty are listening to this thing. Oh my gosh. You know what’s ? There goes another year of my life.[00:27:00]

George: yeah.

George: Jack, thank you so much for this amazing chat. This was really wonderful. You have such an inspiring journey because it is . Again, I thought that I was going to be speaking to someone who had hundreds of thousands of dollars to put into this because everything that you’ve put out looks so professional and,

George: Even your suit and your video looks very expensive.

George: So to find out that you just you pulled everything together with your savings and your friends and your family is just super, super inspiring. So thank you for sharing that. And we are

Jack: Pleasure, Pleasure,

George: thank you. Yeah. And we’re very excited to see what is next for you. And it’s not gonna be rocks, so that’s good.

Jack: There’s

George: All right. Thank you.

Jack: this

George: It’s gonna be rocks.

Jack: plot. Yeah

George: perfect.

Jack: Brilliant. Alright, thanks. Thanks very much.

George: Appreciate it.